The Sound And Fury Of Tuesday’s Live Transit Chat

Published 01/14/2025 · Updated 01/14/2025

This is the transcript of the last night’s chat on Ottawa transit:

Ken Gray : This from David 01/10/2025 at 9:42 AM (Edit) Two responses. (1) Work at home as the default was a glitch. A situation driven by health concerns and not by any other factor. Organization workers need face to face collaboration and debate; access to high tech way beyond home capability; access to confidential information and sources; access to clients and customers; and likely more, as well as a need to get out of the house. (2) The city needs to protect and exploit its investment. It needs to
Ken Gray : this from sisco farraro 01/10/2025 at 10:58 AM (Edit) David. I have often thought about the idea of working at home rather than in the office. While I agree with your synopsis the biggest problem for me has always been the many distractions I faced at home. For example I knew I’d find myself saying “Time to work. Okay, right after I listen to side 2 of Led Zeppelin III I’ll get right to it.” Once that 20 minutes of bliss was over I know I’d find myself saying “Okay, just one more s
Ken Gray : This from The Voter 01/10/2025 at 9:55 PM (Edit) David, The first problem with penalizing people for not taking transit is that, for many, OC Transpo does not provide reliable, efficient service from where you are to where you need to be. This is especially true for people in the rural areas of the city who may have no transit service at all, let alone reliable service. It often doesn’t work for parents who have to drop one child at daycare and a second at school on their way to work. Unle
Ken Gray : Above we have three comments that were submitted before the live chat was opened.
Ken Gray : Welcome To The Live Chat
Ken Gray : So is transit obsolete?
Transit : People are still using it
Ron Benn : Hi Ken.
The Voter : It can’t be obselete for those who depend on it because they have no other option but it seems OC is doing everything they can to make not obselete but impossible to use or fund.
guest_730 : In my opinion, one of Ottawa’s biggest obstacles faces is the fact the city does not operate on a grid. This makes scheduling difficult and so buses have to circumnavigate
Ken Gray : hello ron
Ron Benn : Public transit is a necessity in larger municipalities. At issue is how to achieve a balance between delivering the services that people require and the cost of delivering those services.
Ron Benn : Guest_730: The hub and spoke structure of Ottawa’s public transit is part of the problem.
howard crerar : Sorry. This makes scheduling difficult and forces patrons to transfer between a number of buses. If the city could simplify routing I think more people would use the system.
Ken Gray : guest 730 — please use a name so you are easier to follow
howard crerar : Formerly hurst 730.
Ken Gray : hi howard
Ron Benn : People living in my community (Centrepointe) are about mid-way between downtown and Kanata. The two main employment areas. Transit downtown is straight forward. Transit to Kanata … probably faster to walk.
howard crerar : I used to ride the system but found it too confusing. Once I finally figured out how to use the system effectively someone would change it.
Ken Gray : the time to get to your destination … particularly from barrhaven … is ridiculous
Ron Benn : Therein the problem lies. Travel time for a commuter is measured from front door to desk (or equivalent). OC Transpo appears to think that it is measured on how long this bus takes.
Ken Gray : i used to be able to take the transitway from dominion station to metcalfe and then walk to city hall — 21 minutes door-to-door
The Voter : The City has three $half-billion plus projects it’s “investing” in at present, i.e. Tewin, Lansdowne and LRT – one or more of these three has to go. There simply isn’t the money in this community to fund all three without our great-great-grandchildren paying for it. We are likely at this rate to end up with a disintegrating, cut-to-the-bone system that will not serve anyone well.
howard crerar : So the main issues are usability and cost at this point, in addition to the outstanding debt. OC Transpo needs to break down its primary issues and tackle them in a preferred order rather than tackling everything at once. Oh, pardon me, management is also a big part of the problem. That would be a good place to start.
Ken Gray : And for all you tough business types out there who think that transit is unnecessary, this is what brings you labour to your site
Ron Benn : Time has a value. So too does convenience. Those who have sufficient disposable income have the opportunity to make a choice. And the overwhelming, by traffic congestion measures, is using a personal vehicle. Those who do not have sufficient disposable income are stuck with public transit, and the consequent loss of personal time getting to and from their destination.
The Voter : It’s also essential for many students to get to school and part-time jobs and for seniors to get to shopping and social outings so they’re not isolated.
Ken Gray : So transit is not obsolete?
howard crerar : Ron. Whenever the conversation turns to cost everyone forgets to add the value of their personal time to the occasion.
howard crerar : EQUATION.
Ron Benn : HC’s comment regarding usability and cost is critical. For people to want to take transit, it must take them from where they are to where they want to go. Ideally in a reasonable amount of time.
The Voter : The need is not obselete but the way OC is killing it slowly will make it of little use to anyone but the desparate.
Ron Benn : Cost only comes into the equation IF public transit gets them from where they are to where they want to go.
howard crerar : Sorry for my lack of knowledge, but what is the transitway used for these days?
Ken Gray : I think as time goes on that transit will show larger and larger deficits because technology with work-at-home and other advents will reduce the number of users — you can’t stop people from not using it (thx yogi)
Ken Gray : hc — light rail
The Voter : The LRT is being built on the Ttransitway, Howard, So it will soon be gone.
Ken Gray : there’s the thing voter — had we run rail elsewhere we would have had the transitway and light rail
howard crerar : Too bad about the transitway. It was a really good system. And, If the buses aren’t being used less mechanics will be employed and that will be the end of transit in Ottawa or fares will skyrocket because mechanics will have more leverage.
Ron Benn : hc, the western of the transit way (from downtown to Tunneys) is used by the Confederation Line LRT. The section from Tunney’s to the Western Parkway now has rail in it. Buses run from Tunneys to Baseline along Scott, the Western Parkway to Lincoln Fields, then on to the transit way to Baseline. From Baseline to Barrhaven they use Woodroffe and the Transitway near the Sportsplex.
The Voter : Exactly. We could then have had an instant backup for LRT instead of buses running on regular streets and taking ages. The buses should have been used as the backbone of the system with rail for longer distances.
Ron Benn : To Ken’s comment: Imagine having two dedicated public transit routes, serving different elements of the population.
howard crerar : Need to step away for a moment. The cats are screeching for dinner.
Ken Gray : ron — that could not possibly work because it makes sense
Ron Benn : The LRT could have come from ‘away’ (Kanata, Barrhaven, Orleans) with few stops in between. The buses could have used the transit way for those starting/ending their journey from inside the Greenbelt.
Ken Gray : how did we get a transit system that has become so bad
Ron Benn : My apologies for giving ‘near west’ examples, but I don’t stray too far east very often, and when I do, it is not by transit.
The Voter : Ken, no clear vision at council or OC. Most people who made the decisions that got us here knew and know nothing about trains and it shows.
Ron Benn : How? Poor decision making. Decisions made on the back of an envelope. Decisions made with insufficient thought on the derivatives. On how riders (consumers) make their transit decisions.
The Voter : Ron, the train will replace the Transitway east of Blair out to Trim Road but there’s no big change since it mostly ran on the highway at that em
Ken Gray : voter — i remember some staffer saying the train couldn’t go down carling because it would take too long to get to kanata … well they solved that problem … the train doesn’t go to kanata lol
Ron Benn : The Confederation LIne (east west) was “reverse engineered” based on how to minimize cost. Little/no thought on how to deliver a service that people would want to take.
Ken Gray : also how did we get all these technical problems
Ron Benn : LRTs are supposed to take a relatively large number of passengers relatively longer distances in relatively less time. The relative being to alternative transportation.
The Voter : Ron, Also no interest in where the passenger mass was, i.e. Carling but lots of attention to where the development options were along the Western Parkway
Ron Benn : Ottawa’s LRT is capable of taking relatively more passengers. By not extending beyond the Greenbelt, it is not capable of travelling longer distance. By having a stop every kilometer (13 stations over 12 kms), it loses the time advantage.
Ken Gray : we have the wrong train — light rail is not meant for dedicated routes — dedicated routes are for lines like Toronto’s — remember Alstom had to put bigger engines into the trains because the original engines couldn’t handle the strains being put upon it
Ron Benn : That Stage 2 of the Confed Line does go further south than Baseline and Woodroffe is indicative of incremental decision making. Only build a bit at a time. To not frighten the taxpayers.
Ken Gray : one wonders if the other problems stem from the engine change
Ken Gray : i think the voter suggested we go with diesel on the main line because the current system doesn’t work
The Voter : Aah, but Ken, look at the job opportunities for former Transit managers within the LR industry! Alain Mercier and John Manconi, by a huge coincidence, I’m sure, both ended up there.
Ron Benn : Per someone from Seimens, many of the problems faced by recent LRT installs in Toronto and Ottawa is the mis-matching of the key elements. Track signals/controls by A. Trains by B. Synching up the proprietary software between suppliers is a major headache.
Ken Gray : the tsb came up with so many reasons for the train not working that Bob Chiarelli called it right … this thing is a lemon
Ken Gray : I’m not sure electric can work in this climate — really bad mistakes were made at the beginning of this project … basic planning decisions … that they have screwed the pooch … much of what has followed has not worked
Ken Gray : so is light rail obsolete — will it be replaced by electric cars, computer driven traffic systems, work-at-home?
Ron Benn : The electric drive part isn’t the problem. It was the failure of the design to take into account snow/sleet.
The Voter : And certain egos are having trouble with the “lemon” tag that they seem to be barrelling on and even more committed to pushing it through. There would be a huge benefit to putting the brakes on the whole thing, stopping ALL the construction and having a calm, sober look at the whole thing. This has to happen before we go on entrenching the current mistakes in more infrastructure.
Ken Gray : all the lines are under construction or finished now voter so it could be too late — maybe they will do that when it is finished
Ron Benn : A simple cover over the overhead wires would solve that. But installing the poles to suspend the roof at this stage would be challenging with trains going by every 5-10 minutes.
Ken Gray : many of the parts of line are close to completion — hard as that is to be believed
Ron Benn : Close to completion, but still a couple of years to go. That says it all about the sense of urgency coming out of city hall.
Ken Gray : well we could stop it for three weeks for “routine maintenance” lol ron
Ron Benn : Routine in Ottawa has its own meaning. In so very many ways.
Ken Gray : there’s not much concern about getting it done — or maybe they’re stretching out the budget
Ken Gray : you would think the city would be demanding completion — line 2-4 was two years late
Ken Gray : i’m hoping to ride the west end train once before I die
Ron Benn : Work expands to fill the time and space available.
The Voter : The western section from Moodie to Kanata and the southern section from Baseline to Barrhaven aren’t built yet, are they? The other thing they could do when they’re in such financial trouble is stop putting in frills like artwork and landscaping at the new stations. They should be stripped back to the most basic possible.
Ron Benn : Voter, you are describing Stage 3. The only thing done on Stage 3 is a time limited environmental study. Commissioned by then Barrhaven Councillor Jan Harder, to show that she was doing something about the 1.5 hour per direction commutes for her constituents.
The Voter : Ron, the overhead covers could be installed at night when the train’s not running. it would only give them 4 or 5 hours a night but could reduce the interruption of service,
Ken Gray : the whole line voter should have been basic — like using the red stations instead of these poured concrete brutalist monstrosities — i don’t care if i’m in an artistic station — i care about getting where i want to go — the principals in this wanted to build a monument to themselves and they have. It’s lousy
Ron Benn : Agreed, but according to Councillor Johnson in remarks she made at a Centrepointe public consultation about a year ago, councillors are not supposed to bring up the topic of the LRT.
Ken Gray : I’m sorry voter but night work is impossible because that would be a bother for workers and city officials — we need daytime routine maintenance
Ron Benn : Her words were to the effect of “I know we aren’t supposed to talk about the LRT but …”
Ron Benn : Ah yes. Shift work. Done to replace the overpasses on the 417. But no where else in this city.
The Voter : I wonder what the whole thing would have looked like if they’d consulted potential riders way back when. Very different, I suspect, from routes, stops, the overall look, etc.
Ken Gray : what kind of glee club doesn’t want to discuss issues. You can discuss issues and still be collegial — you know like “with respect and then tear them to pieces.”
Ken Gray : 417 is the province — they have tight schedules in toronto – here we have gardens to tend
howard crerar : It took me a few minutes to catch up on what has been discussed in my absence. I think we may be heading towards the conclusion that Ottawa is a city in which residents work from home or drive cars to work. Maybe we throw in the towel, pay the debt, and start doing a better job of constructing and maintaining our roads.
Ron Benn : Voter, have you forgotten that consulting the public is done to complete the check list. Why would staff and councillors listen to the ‘great unwashed’?
Ken Gray : it’s amazing ron … staff gets it wrong time and time again … yet they still don’t listen at public meetings … WE KNOW BETTER … no you don’t
The Voter : They have a gag order on them so they can’t stray off script or let slip any of the secrets. It’s probably also so nobody can pin them down about any aspect of it in public.
Ron Benn : hc, that is what we have right now. What happens IF people are required to actually attend the office, like they did five years ago?
howard crerar : Ron. Jim Watson promised to listen to voters but never did. He went through the motions by sending reps from city hall to community association meetings but the decisions had been made before the meetings were ever held.
Ken Gray : you can’t stand in the way of history … work at home is here to stay
Ron Benn : Not just a thought. JP Morgan is in the process of telling its staff to be in the office 5 days a week.
Ken Gray : How long will that last Ron? Staff doesn’t want it.
Ken Gray : staff will go where they can work from home
The Voter : Sorry, Ron! Every now and again, I get caught up in what could be instead of what is. I’ll try and control myself better!
Ron Benn : Ken, staff doesn’t get it wrong. That is just the opinion of those who suffer the consequences of the decisions that were made with insufficient thought.
Ken Gray : Ron whatever you said … I agree
Ron Benn : JP Morgan may be a canary in the coal mine. Maybe they lose staff. Maybe they don’t. But if they don’t?
Ken Gray : best they buy bird seed
The Voter : And we know that, at OC, our opinions aren’t wanted!!
Ken Gray : in fact bird seed futures lol
howard crerar : Ron. If JPM loses staff they people leaving add JP Morgan to their CV and successfully find new jobs.
Ken Gray : i guess what i’m saying is that eventually after years of complaining they will work from home … and some people work best from home … i know i do
Ron Benn : hc, I am not espousing a return to the office. What I am doing is pointing out that a known entity is making changes. Perhaps because the current situation (work from home, hybrid) is not producing the results expected of highly paid employees.
Ken Gray : i remember jim watson said you couldn’t let people work from home because no one is watching them … if they don’t get the job done from home, there are a couple of solutions for that
howard crerar : Interestingly enough, Renee A has not come up yet. Addressing management issues should be her primary goal. She needs to surround herself with more capable people, particularly competent project managers.
The Voter : Will there soon be courses offered on how to work well either from home or in a hybrid model? I can see a market for that.
Ken Gray : you know the same people surround her as the ones from years ago
Ron Benn : I recall reading a column in June 2020 by a former DM. He said that the feds were not permitted to measure productivity due to collective bargaining clauses. So they settled for measuring attendance. Sigh.
howard crerar : And Ken, if people at city hall are watching others work, we definitely have too many public servants in place.
Ken Gray : that is a measure of disaster
Ken Gray : if you show up for work, you’re doing fine … good grief
Ron Benn : I have a small degree of sympathy for Renee A. She is tasked with making a dysfunctional disorganization (OC T) functional, whilst being micro-managed by a dysfunctional disorganization (city hall) that keeps cutting the funding.
howard crerar :Voter. There’s also a need for teaching young people that management consists of more than burying their faces in a monitor all day and waching numbers go by.
The Voter : Some of you probably remember the orange City of Ottawa trucks. They were instituted by Charlotte Whitton back in the day so people could report on city workers who appeared to be slacking off. The belief that workers don’t produce unless they’re being watched is nothing new at City Hall!
howard crerar : Ron. It’s time for Renee to stand up for herself and show us she can do the job.
Ron Benn : hc, I agree. She needs to point out that demanding the difficult while cutting resources is not a path to success.
Ken Gray : RA needs to stand up and take charge rather than saying she doesn’t want opinion … just facts
Ron Benn : Public transit is a must have in cities beyond a certain size. By provincial regulation.
Ken Gray : leaders are expected to lead — so lead
howard crerar : Jim Watson and his bullying tactics no longer seem to be de riguer. Nor has the term bobble heads been appearing much of late.
Ken Gray : you don’t need to be a tough guy to lead but you must take charge
Ken Gray : howard … maybe we’re just being polite
Ron Benn : Far too many years ago, we were trained to design a business based on success. To compare it to the current situation. Then make the necessary changes – add this, lose that.
howard crerar : And if you’re incompetent,at least surround yourself with competent people.
Ron Benn : I have not seen anything from OC Transpo that approximates what a successful transit system would look like.
Ron Benn : That is a failure by Renee A.
Ken Gray : good point hc … I got a lot smarter when i was managing when I had good people around me … or maybe it was them
The Voter : What specific experience does Mme Amilcar bring to the table for the situation she finds herself in? She ran the Montreal bus service but not the trains. System expansion in that context consists of adding service to new neighbourhoods and employment centres, not building a whole new system on a different platform.
Ken Gray : voter — the buses aren’t working too great either
Ron Benn : That experience would lead me to think that adding service that links where people live and where they work.
howard crerar : Ron. People don’t know how to define success. It’s quite simple, you “measure” for success. Begin with a baseline of numbers then determine if the numbers are going in the direction they should be or not.
Ken Gray : interest concept ron … wonder if they’ve considered that on Laurier Avenue
Ken Gray : success is a bunch of things — in media — readership, quality, readership, some quality …
howard crerar : One problem withh polling is these days we’re surveyed about everything. SWde need to find a new approach to gain back peoples’ interest.
The Voter : My suspicion is she’s been told to make the trains work and any left-over resources can go to the bus system.
howard crerar : Voter. We could ask her if she was here.
Ken Gray : will we need fewer buses in the unlikely event that the trains work properly
howard crerar : Ken. People won’t want to walk to the trains.
Ken Gray : my suspicion is she hasn’t been told anything
Ron Benn : One way to handle the dearth of info is to compare the postal code (first 4 digits) of the city employee’s home address and the postal code of where they work. Then use “the APP” to calculate the travel time required from front door to desk and back. Compare that to the estimated drive time.
The Voter : The other question is where is Wendy Stephanson, Amilcar’s boss, in all this? She’s been doing one of the best imitations of invisibility that I’ve seen in a long time. She is ultimately resonsible for Amilcar doing her job but is nowhere to be seen.
The Voter : *responsible
howard crerar : In baseball when a team tanks they fire the manager. Voter, in this case we have 2 options.
Ken Gray : being invisible and uncontroversial and not making decisions is an essential part of upward mobility in management
Ron Benn : Perhaps in the public realm Ken. Not in for profit businesses.
Ron Benn : hc made a comment about how the incompetent should surround themselves with those who are competent.
Ken Gray : Oh don’t be so sure … i worked in the private sector and the best way to go to the top is to not have ideas but do what you are told
The Voter : I can’t see Steve K or Kent Kirkpatrick or Merv Beckstead not being all over this.
Ron Benn : That requires that the incompetent be self aware. Look around the council chamber and tell me how many are that self aware.
Ken Gray : Steve K had an opportunity to be all over this
howard crerar : Ron. I learned that from the CEO of the software company I worked for. He was a very smart man.
Ken Gray : Merv Beckstead, bless his soul, would not have stood for this. He was the nicest guy but he had a backbone
Ken Gray : i like merv a lot
howard crerar : Ron. Self-awareness at the council table? Politics is all about power, money and especially ego.
Ron Benn : Merv knew what he was doing. Merv did not accept substandard (and he set the standards) efforts.
The Voter : Me too! He taught me many lessons that still influence me.
Ken Gray : liked … unfortunately left out the d
howard crerar : Part of being a strong leader is also knowing when to say “I was mistaken”.
Ken Gray : it was said Merv was the best public servant in Ottawa … not just at the city … people were coming to the region when Merv was running it … not running away like now
Ron Benn : When it comes to firing the manager, results matter. The problem at city hall is no one is interested in setting standards for ‘results’.
howard crerar : People are also running away because the city has become very unsafe.
Ken Gray : don’t be controversial is the standard … you can’t be a good manager without taking difficult decisions and those decisions caused controversy
Ron Benn : Carleton Place to Kanata is a quick drive down a four lane highway. In Carleton Place people can buy a single family dwelling.
Ken Gray : and they won’t be intensified
howard crerar : So, we’ve move from OC Transpo to management to public safety. Does anyone know if city hall has looked into what CTA and TTC are doing that works? If not, it’s time to get a move on.
Ron Benn : Short drive time to work and shopping. Dwellings that meet their needs. Less ideology.
The Voter : Ken, you also have to be certain not to do anything that makes the people above you uncomfortable. There’s a lot of “going along to get along” happening at City Hall.
howard crerar : Voter. No debates? No controversy?
Ron Benn : hc, one of the problems with those who populate city hall is identifying a comparable. Calgary is comparable in population, geographic size. Amsterdam and Copenhagen are more fun to fantasize about.
The Voter : Not if it might rock the proverbial boat!
Ken Gray : getting along is everything voter. funny, i come from a culture that says that quantity and quality matter … you can get those two things and get along too … it takes leadership
Ken Gray : that’s why public meetings are controlled and orchestrated … plse god no controversy, i could lose my job … i didn’t get along
howard crerar : If everyone in the conference room is sitting nodding every time someone says something the company is doomed.
Ken Gray : too many scared people but not here among the readers of the bulldog
Ron Benn : Ken, what you described was productivity.
Ken Gray : all those big words ron. I get confused lol
Ken Gray : folks … we’re hitting deadline … I shortened the chat this time because it tended to decline after 90 minutes … have we hit the wall?
Ken Gray : it’s sens game time lol
Ron Benn : Not a good way to phrase that, given OC Transpo’s record.
howard crerar : Ken. No fear at the Bulldog, no. What a great time to get out my baby boomer angst!
The Voter : Aha – so it’s not that you love us less but that you love the Sens more!
Ron Benn : Good night all.
Ken Gray : I would never say that Voter but i do like the Sens
Ken Gray : is it unanimous on ending?
howard crerar : Goodnight folks. Had a great time at the live show.
The Voter : You didn’t have to say it – I said it for you! Heehee!
Ken Gray : thank you all for your help … as ever
Transit : Go Leafs Go
Ken Gray : what! What! …. transit go home
Ken Gray : good night foks
Ken Gray : folks
The Voter : Sorry – Transit can’t get from here to there.
Transit : Jumping 8n the car now